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    Who are the NERD fund donors Mr Snyder?

    Raise the curtain.

    Display: Sort:
    Really? (none / 0) (#10)
    by jgillmanjr on Sat Dec 19, 2009 at 02:22:57 PM EST
    The counter to that is "Well, they can choose to go to another business"...  they can, but that choice itself is forced upon them.

    Do you really want to go there?

    Going on that logic, with the passage of this law, smokers who wish to smoke while enjoying a drink or food are forced to go to "underground" establishments (prohibition, speakeasies, what?). What say you?

    As for this:

    There is no philosophical or Constitutional reason a State can't choose to regulate time and place with smoking - where's the Constitutional prohibition.

    No philosophical reason? Are you kidding me? So then you would agree with the statement that there is no philosophical or constitutional reason the state couldn't ban smoking? Would you also agree with the statement that there is no philosophical or constitutional reason the state couldn't place arbitrary restrictions upon the use of private property?

    I suppose you agree with the Wickard v. Filburn decision?

    Parent

    • Give a break by chetly, 12/20/2009 09:04:12 PM EST (none / 0)
      • Um, no? by jgillmanjr, 12/20/2009 09:56:18 PM EST (none / 0)
    Forced choices (none / 0) (#17)
    by boguth on Wed Dec 23, 2009 at 12:24:15 PM EST
    "Well, they can choose to go to another business"...  they can, but that choice itself is forced upon them....

    Chetly, your word choice here seems to be distorting this fascinating discussion (and I would guess is also causing you to come out opposite of "the litmus test" side on this issue).  This is a shame, because this issue is a microcosm of bigger ones.

    The distortion stems from misleading use of the word "forced."  The situation where those who would prefer not to be around smokers when visiting bars and restaurants no more involves "forcing" a decision on them than does the fact that if a person wants to watch an NBA game in Michigan, he has to go to Auburn Hills to see it (notwithstanding the preseason game they play in GR).  Both situations are just reality, as delivered to us by our relatively free market.

    One can use the word "force" to describe both situations, but it doesn't accurately describe what's going on.  Instead, it's more accurate to say something like "smoke-averse people face a choice of whether to deal with smoke or to face a more constrained set of establishments."  (Interestingly, that constrained set was increasing before this law passed.)

    Or to be more concise, "they faced a choice."  Except with guns to our heads, I can't quite think of situations involving "forced" choices, properly understood.

    On the other hand, restaurateurs and others who want to serve smokers are being forced to make a choice: stop meeting that particular demand, or pay the legal penalty.  That's certainly the regulatory version of a gun to the head.

    As an aside, you wrote: "everyone on the "litmus test" side recognizes the rights of smokers and businesses but ignores that second-hand smoker has a real, significant impact on other individuals."

    I doubt everyone ignores such an impact (assuming for the sake of argument that it's really "real" and "significant").  They may simply think minority rights outweigh the desire to outlaw smoke-averse persons' villains, the Michigan restaurant industry.

    Parent

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